What year did you come back?
1955.

So you joined N.B.S.
Well, I had an interview which was set up in London. And I had been assured that Nigerian Broadcasting was at its infancy and every opportunity was open and that he things I wanted to do could be done. This was in Germany.

My interest was in live music, classical music and so on. You set up your orchestra. Everything can be arranged because the thing is still young, nobody has added any touch to it then. So, with a lot of pressure, I decided I would come back. Now the extent of that pressure is best demonstrated by the simple fact that when I came back to Nigeria , the salary I was offered at N.B.S. was less than the amount I had paid in income tax the previous year in England .

Did you move back to England?
Yes, I went back to England ... Because at the time Bank Anthony and others started the pressure on me, it was a question of: In England, it is easier for interviews and stuff like these to be set up. So, I went back to England and was working for B.B.C. - Oversea Service as a free lancer. So, that was how I came back to Nigeria only to discover, that many of the promises that had been made were not existent. Never to be fulfilled. And this was mainly because broadcasting was organised on a very tight budget. And most of the things I had said I wanted to do, could not just be covered.

However, as a staff, I was allowed to form what was then called the N.B.C. Dance Orchestra, which was the first radio orchestra. And I got a chance of writing at a professional level. But unfortunately, there were not enough trained instrumentalists. So, if I wanted to do anything that was outside of the dance music, I couldn't do it. So, that is how come I eventually moved into using voices because I could still write the voices in the style which I wanted to. And I did not have the hassles of insisting that the musician tune his instrument right or my having to teach him every single phrase.

So that was how the voice thing came about in the first place. It was a coincidence because N.B.S. at that time had a choir which I believe they still have up till now. And that choir was the responsibility of the Late Fela Sowande, whose assistant I was when I joined N.B.S. So, when he traveled, I had to take the choir.

For me, it was literarily a choir... you know just doing hymns and so on for Sunday Services. And I was looking at that and the people who were available there - their understanding of music, began to suggest to me that this is the way to go. Use the voices as instrument.

And the very first time that this happened was on the occasion when N.B.S. was becoming N.S.C. The Director General sent me a directive saying that for broadcast on the day of this change over; he wanted me to write a new song. Now, since my state of interest was Orchestra music, this was what he assumed I would be doing; but then, I started writing and I looked around and discovered there were no instrumentalists to do what I wanted. So, I decided to change... I kept my concept, but how, started writing for voices instead of for instru­ment. And that was broadcast.

So, that was where really it started from - the Steve Rhodes Voices, because then, I discovered that it was possible to do a lot of the stuffs which I wanted to do but using voices as well as instruments.

Maybe we should start by talking about your involvement and activities in ITPAN. How did it all start?
Well, what has evolved now into ITPAN, started about ten years ago. I brought together a group of independent producers which included at that time, people like Steve Ojo, Jab Adu, Lola Fani­-Kayode and some others. We worked with what I could say at this stage was... look for us to have any voice or hearing; we should have an organisation that gives us a platform. We had a few meetings ... primarily on NTA because NT A was the only known station at that time.

We had a meeting with the then General Manager, Walter Ofonagoro and I presented the group to him. I was invited by the Commission on rationalisation which was set up to look into NTA. I presented a paper to them. And I am glad to say that most of the things which at that time I was recommending have in fact been realised. That body fell apart mainly because NT A took care of the body by offering programmes to some of the members - who at that time could not see the long term wisdom in what we were trying to do.

Another factor, of course, was that there just was not the kind of money available at that time to ensure that the thing could go on. So after about a year or so, that body fell apart.

In 1992, when the T.C.P.C. started looking at the N.T.A. along with the private television, the matter came up again. Some of the people who worked with T.C.P.C. had whispered to a few people, ex-mem­bers that they intend to start making representations again. And two of the independent producers in discussions asked that would I spearhead something like this again. So really, I saw my function here as that of a catalyst to try and get processional$ together once more into an organisation that would help regulate the activities of independent producers and ensure that its standards were maintained.

Along the way after we started talking, Mr. President came out with a statement when he had a meeting wit the APCON people to the effect that he would like to go down in history as the first President to make Private Television possible. Of course, that meant immediately we had to change our direction, because we are no longer just talking about a monopoly situation of NTA, but we are looking at a new situation where Private Television is going to come into being. The responsibility of handling a medium as powerful as that was something which we saw was an area we should diversify our energy into.

Now to be honest, I refuse to let the organisation speak out on the subject of Private Television for one simple reason: I maintained that until we are a legally constituted body, it would be wrong for us to start sounding off because the chances were, if we did that, we would never become a legally constituted body.

So, whilst we went ahead and did a lot of work on things like the constitution, outlining ITPAN's functions; what it should face, setting up committees to look into areas like professional standards, equipment standards, ethical codes and stuffs like that, we did not make any public statement as ITPAN. On the other hand, a number of members of ITPAN did make contributions to the general on going discussion on Private Television. The way things worked out, we finally received our registration about a month before the statement came out saying that a decree was on the way.

How have you been able to do your act what you enjoy. How has it been able to be translated into living well?
Well, I think that the years I spent abroad had provided me with my pension. I've worked since I came back to Nigeria on good jobs. The last job from which I retired was for a tobacco company; where my boss was located in Switzerland and I kept an amount for money which I received there. I made modest investments. I still receive royalties and various things. I do things here when I am convinced that these are things that you know...

Things like What?
You know people coming on and saying: "Could you write a theme for us," but I take the position that if you are asking me to do this, it is because you are saying that that is the quality which I want to get for particular thing. In which case, you cannot expect to pay me what you would pay Mr. X. whom you chose not to use. This way, I reduce quite considerably the number of requests that I receive to do things like that. And very frequently, I say no; because the particular thing does not speak to me. I don't believe in... I don't see myself writing jingles because I don't see how it is relevant to me one way or another.

On the other hand, if you say you have an organisation that is related to broadcasting, and you want to have a theme song for that organisation, Yes, I could agree to do it.

You did the 9'0 clock Network News theme music... ?
Yeah, I did that. The theme for Newsline. I did too. And the Newsweek Monday night programme. Again, if you listen to each of those things, you won't think it is written by the same person; because in each case, I was looking at the particular programme structure, focus and so on. And did something that addressed that - not trying to write something in my style.

What was required?
You need totally different things... You see at one point when they were doing Second Chance, they needed a theme. And I did a theme which again, is totally different from anything that I had done up to that point; or since, because it was a comic situation and what I did for them was a theme that laughed at itself. Instrumentally, I made it laugh at itself. It conveyed the impression of comedy without any words.

How do you do these things?
Rhodes : What?

The things you do. Does it come easily like that?
As I said, I had to start from something that I believe in - that I would have been willing to do. If you come along to me and say, "will you write something for V.O.N., this is something that I'd be willing to do. I mean, that has to be there first. Then, of course, you tell me: You would pay so much for me to do it.

If we started from something which already I believe in, then, it's not going to be very difficult because what you think is: You want to be able to portray this particular thing. How do you portray this musically? Is it a thing which is pompous in its approach or subtle? These are things you look at. Then, I say to myself: How do I want to state this? Do I want to use words or only instruments?

Between broadcasting and the art
As I said, the promises I was made were never met. I wanted an orchestra and live music, but when I got here, it was not in place. I had to fight all the way to do the little I could do in broadcasting. I formed the NBC dance orchestra. It wasn't an NBC thing but a programme I put together for TV. I couldn't do these things I was equipped .to do. And when I couldn't take it anymore, I went back to Europe, but returned again when their WNTV started. I was invited by one of the expatriates I had worked with in Europe .

Leaving TV
I left TV in my 40s to start my own thing. I became a producer of concerts when I brought in to Lagos Millicent Small and James Brown.

What have you achieved as a producer and musician?
I started out in broadcasting in Europe and Germany. I worked for Forces Broadcasting in Hamburg, did some quite interesting programmes there. Okay, so may be I've not been too wise about business. Then I worked in London with a recording to push and make young artistes come for company. I produced some quite interesting ward; explore their talents and potentials, so works. In fact, some of them are still on sales that they can do really well like the Ambrose, Ambrose. Then I came back to Nigeria and formed the NBC

Dance Orchestra. It was first of it kind. It was an Orchestra where they actually read music, everybody had to read music. Then from there I went to Television in Ibadan, delved into producing and directing the first Television drama in the country.

What was it called?
It was called "The More Excellent Way". I think I should make a point here, through­out my life, both in abroad and here in Nigeria , I have done what I consider as pioneering working. I see myself as a catalyst that makes things happen. I will start things, create new grounds, try and get something going, to show what the possibilities are in that area but unfortunately, once the challenge is over and I have established the thing and the grounding, I move further looking fur new works to conquer.

That is one of the reasons why I'm out of Radio and Television to the stage. Each of these ones was like breaking new grounds, discovering new talents and pushing people to make them do the sorts of things I knew they could do where the ability has not been tapped before. This is one of the main problems here in Nigeria . In fact there are so much talent lying out there but because nobody is really interested except for commercial gain, nobody is interested in extracting that talent. These talents lay there in a waste. This is part of what I'm trying to do.

Why didn't you go commercial with your musical career long before age caught up with you?
Well, I must say that I'm not a very wise person. I do things because I believe in them and feel that they should be done. I do things because I know that I'm capable of doing those things and doing them well. I don't go into a thing because it will give me money.

As a matter of fact, one of the tenets by which I live with is that I will not do anything fur money; which I would not have been willing to do fur nothing. When I'm starting a project, I have no monetary gain attached to it. I just go ahead and do it. If it brings some kind of monetary reward, good! So be it! But I will not stand out saying I won't do a thing except it gives me money.

Apart from music; what else do you do?
Well, because of my basic training, I'm an administrator. I do various things pertaining to administration. I run theatres, I run my own companies. In short, I am into organization that is organizing things.

You said earlier that you were once a broadcaster, when and why did you abandon that profession?

I went from radio to television. I was in television up to 19... (Pause) While I was in the television, I was producing things, doing stage shows and sound adaptation and my name was fairly well known. I was approached by Cadbury to organize a commercial tour of Nigeria for an artist called Milton Moore.

This was a major event because it meant that we had to stage shows in Ibadan Lagos. Benin and Kaduna. To put these together, I found out I could not cope with shifting job. And because this was an area I wanted to get into anyhow, I had to leave broadcasting to face organising shows and events management. After the Milton Moore tour, which was a success, I did the James Brown tour, which was also a bit successful.

For 50 years you've been a performer, arranger and producer of musical shows for stage, radio and television, have you been able to produce an album of your own?
Yes, but not commercial. As I said before, I don't do commercial music. I do interpretative music, which is art music. I can't see myself getting into commercial music. To me, the commercial appeals to the lowest commonly denominator. It is Mathematics. I can't do that work. It doesn't appeal to me. I must be doing something that has substance that requires intellectual approach.

Could you lead us properly into your musical career and what you want to be remembered for when you finally go of the stage?
Legacies for me is a difficult thing to say now. But I know that, the work I have done will live in the people that I have worked with all my life. I believe, they are the people that are going to use the ideas and the kind of discipline that I tried to bring into music in Nigeria. That is up to them. It's not my legacies anyway. But if! am gone and anybody wants to talk about music, it can be remembered that there was one man who tried to chart a direction for Nigerian music.

How would you describe your achievement in music; fulfilling and adventurous or something of disappointment?
One could have achieved more, but in terms of being able to impart knowledge and help discover talents, yes!, I am fulfilled. But unfortunately, commercially, I am not. I am rather stupid. I do not attach much importance to material gains. I do things because I believe in them. Things that has strong creative base.

Sometimes, I do not mind whether what I am doing with my music has any monetary inducement. I don't have that sense of enterprise I must confess to you. My effort in life usually is geared towards creating something new and making it appear rather interesting and challenging to the extreme.